The Wisconsin Democratic primary for governor has gone haywire. Over the last week, Lt. Gov. Sara Rodriguez dropped out amid a campaign finance scandal, and a candidate who had suspended his campaign, Milwaukee County Executive David Crowley, rejoined the race — immediately nabbing an influential endorsement from current Gov. Tony Evers. Meanwhile, state Rep. Francesca Hong, a democratic socialist, has surged in recent polls. Is this last-minute shakeup a coincidence, or part of a concerted effort to keep Hong from securing the nomination?

Today on Lever Time, David Sirota speaks with Hong, the candidate in the middle of it all. They discuss the opposition to her grassroots campaign, why she thinks her politics are better positioned to defeat Republicans, and why she believes the entire debate over “electability” misunderstands this political moment in the United States.

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TRANSCRIPT

Following is an automated, unedited transcription of this episode. The text may contain grammatical or spelling errors, especially for proper nouns, or attribute text to the wrong speaker. If you plan to quote any part of this transcript, please first confirm that it is correct by listening to the audio.

[00:00:00] David Sirota: From The Lever's reader-supported newsroom, it's Lever Time. I'm David Sirota. You've almost certainly heard about Democratic socialists suddenly winning primary elections for seats in the U.S. House. But is America now on the verge of electing its first socialist governor? And could that happen in one of the most politically divided swing states in the country?

The answer to both of those questions is maybe.

[00:00:24] Francesca Hong: My name's Francesca Hong. I am the state representative in Wisconsin running to be Wisconsin's next governor.

[00:00:31] David Sirota: According to polls, state legislator Francesca Hong, a Democratic socialist, is now surging ahead in her underdog run for governor of Wisconsin.

[00:00:40] Upfront: Lieutenant Governor Sarah Rodriguez dropping out of the race Friday, just days after her campaign imploded over a major financial crisis

[00:00:48] David Sirota: and now, Democratic power brokers are frantically trying to consolidate the crowded field of candidates in order to try to stop her from becoming the party's gubernatorial nominee.

[00:00:59] 58 News: Milwaukee County Executive David Crowley has resurrected his campaign for governor, this time with the endorsement of Governor Tony Evers.

[00:01:07] WISN 12 News: Democratic sources tell 12 News party leaders pushed Crowley to reenter the race to prevent Francesca Hong, a Democratic Socialist, from securing the nomination.

[00:01:16] David Sirota: Francesca Hong is a political outsider. She worked in the service industry, opened her own restaurant, and got elected as a Democrat to the state's Republican-controlled legislature during the pandemic in 2020. Hong is now running for governor on a populist economic agenda, including universal childcare, universal paid leave, Medicaid expansion, a public health insurance option, and a state-run public bank.

Hong is aiming to become the top elected official in Wisconsin, the bellwether of bellwether states. This is a place where Donald Trump won twice. It's also a place where Bernie Sanders won its Democratic primary in 2016. It's also the beating heart of the conservative movement, a place that once elected hard right icon Scott Walker as governor and has elected Tea Party Senator Ron Johnson.

So what would it tell us about American politics if that kind of swing state now elects a socialist governor?

Today on Lever Time, I talk to Francesca Hong about all of this. We discuss how she came to describe herself as a Democratic socialist and why she believes she is now surging in the polls, and also what kind of opposition she's faced from Democratic Party power brokers. Hong and I also discuss why she thinks her politics are best positioned to defeat Republicans in a general election, and we discuss why she believes the entire debate over electability misunderstands this political moment in America.

That's all coming up on today's episode.

Welcome back to Lever Time. I'm talking today to Wisconsin gubernatorial candidate Francesca Hong, who describes herself as a Democratic socialist. I started by asking Hong what that term Democratic socialism means to her.

[00:03:09] Francesca Hong: Democratic socialism is ultimately about democracy, fairness, and human rights, and ensuring that everyday ordinary working class folks have more democratic control of what happens in their daily lives, and that the public good that is paid for by public tax dollars actually helps working class people first.

[00:03:30] David Sirota: Why do you think there's such a, aura around that word? Why do you think that word freaks people out? What do you make of all the hype, all, all the fear, all the weirdness around that word and what it evokes among at least some people i- in the political class?

[00:03:45] Francesca Hong: I think the word socialism has become politicized, and the connection to it is about the people who have harmed, uh, others through socialism as opposed to talking about what it is, which is a government that provides the essential public goods and services to help people, you know, live the lives that they want to live.

I think democratic socialism is actually more about freedom than any other form of government, and the scariness that surrounds the word really comes from the people who want to maintain the status quo. That is an S word we should be afraid of, because it's been these types of systems and the people who uphold these systems who have led us here.

So a new playbook with some new plays and new players I think is very sensible. Another S word I would like more associated with the word democratic socialist.

[00:04:41] David Sirota: So how did you come to your, your political views generally? Tell me a little bit about how you became a state legislator, where you came, uh, to state politics from, and again, w- where you, where you arrived at your sort of worldview about what the big problem in politics really is, the power analysis

[00:05:00] Francesca Hong: I'm a service industry worker. I came up through public schools here in my hometown of Madison, Wisconsin, and I'm a proud daughter of Korean immigrants. My parents came here to pursue, uh, education, and I thought I would as well. I tried UW Madison for about a year and a half, but I ended up dropping out to go back to work that I love, which was in restaurants.

I worked as a dishwasher and as, uh, a line cook, server, host. I worked my way up to becoming an executive chef and then opened my own restaurant the same year I had my son in 2016. Working in restaurants, you know, hospitality, sacrifice, and service is first. But restaurants are also a microcosm of a lot of society's ills, the classism, the disrespect, sometimes even the inhumanity in how people can treat one another.

And if you think about where tipping came from and how it's pretty rooted in racism and, the servitude that comes with the service industry. But for me, I take my time in working in restaurants and still being a bartender and line cook today as knowing that it's working class people, the folks who are quietly doing the work behind the scenes, who are often the most, uh, you know, justice impacted, where folks aren't thinking about how to build policies that help everyday people live the lives that they deserve.

And I take very seriously building relationships, caring about folks, and, when systems fail, it's building community that actually helps to fill the gaps, but it's unsustainable. I didn't put words to community organizing and democratic socialism. I just knew that in times of crisis and when folks were struggling, you know, our restaurant became a place for free meals.

We, ended up forming a Cook It Forward, a meal delivery service during COVID. I co-founded the Culinary Ladies Collective because, uh, being a chef, this is a very male-dominated industry, much like politics now. And the way that we out-hustle folks and get folks to pay attention to, uh, the struggles of working in the service industry, um, where it's low barrier to entry.

We have a lot of immigrants. We struggle with addiction in our industry. That should we make things more equitable in the service industry, that these are broader policies that should have already been in place to not have poverty wages, where, um, small business owners are struggling against the big chain restaurants, where, it's often the unfair wages and the way that people treat people who work in the service industry, I think is broadly emblematic of how, uh, we create such, massive, disparities but carry disrespect as leverage.

I, I think that becoming a member of DSA in 2020, it made sense the, the policies and the values of making sure people have what they need to live a dignified life. Um, those were sensible and practical to me. It didn't make sense that we didn't have these things for people yet. Uh, living wage, affordable housing, and opportunities for people to be able to pursue their dream, um, open a restaurant and keep it open.

Mine, when our rent skyrocketed and after COVID, seeing the handouts that went to some of the largest corporations, the restaurant industry, there are things that are inherently unfair and sometimes even inhumane. And I think coming into politics to fix those things was a natural step for someone who genuinely cares about other people and puts them first.

[00:08:33] David Sirota: I'm imagining you in 2020. That year is almost a blur for me because I was working on Bernie Sanders' campaign and then the pandemic happened and, I mean, it was just an, uh, just an insane year. And you're in your journey in the service industry or, you know, you have a restaurant, and you decide to run for office, run for state legislature. What was that process like? What were you up against? What actually got you from, "I, I, I see all these problems, I see all these challenges," to,

"I'm actually going to jump into the political electoral process"?

[00:09:10] Francesca Hong: It was a community of people who were tired of this shit that came together to fight in a crowded seven-way primary, um, where I was one of the last to enter the race, the only one with, um, no political experience, uh, but the person who had been asked multiple times. Our campaign manager was actually the intern for, um, my predecessor now, uh, State Supreme Court Justice, Chris Taylor.

Our volunteer coordinator was-- She did the, uh, production management for a lot of the live shows that came through in Madison. We brought together a diverse coalition of people who had the type of skills and the, the talent of connecting with people and wanting to get shit done. And maybe it was 'cause it was COVID too, and we weren't navigating the unwritten rules of politics and Asking people who I guess were supposed to be asked first if I could run for office.

It was a weird process, but we did what we knew, which was try to make government accessible, um, by having conversations with local elected officials, doing fun campaign events like cooking demos online, by talking to folks about why it's the state legislature that determines our minimum wage. It's the state legislature who holds the purse strings in funding our local government so that we can fix the roads, that funds our local schools.

Making that information more accessible through the networks that I had and empowering more people to get involved in local government. I think it's that willingness to empower and share power that folks connected with, and they were ready for a foul-mouthed, uh, mom, community organizer, and restaurant worker, uh, to actually represent working-class people in the legislature.

And the first thing I did after I won the primary in August was get the hell out of Dane County. I started campaigning with other state legislative candidates who were running in purple, or red districts, uh, learning about what some of the issues were in their communities, but more importantly, using the platform that I had created to talk about how important it is to elect Democrats to the state legislature.

Because folks who voted for us were people who may not have known, uh, who their state representative was or what the state legislature does. Folks who were just ordinary folks like myself, teachers, uh, plumbers, uh, folks who were unemployed, people in the service industry, and they were brought into this world where gerrymandering now has become a more everyday word for folks here in Wisconsin because of what we've been through after Act 10.

and so I think that, that the process then and even now, when we're in a time of deep chaos and crisis, folks are more determined and open to change, and people right now especially are very tired of being told when they can have change and how much of it they can have. So I think that's why being bold and unapologetic and people first, trying to tell it like it is, it's resonating with voters in every corner of our state, regardless of their zip code or whom they may have voted for in 2024.

[00:12:31] David Sirota: When you get to the legislature, uh, in 2021, what were you surprised to learn? Uh, what were you most frustrated to learn? What were some of the things that, um, shaped y- ultimately your, uh, desire to now run for governor?

Like, what was that experience being somewhat of a political outsider in one of the, at least at the state level, ultimate inside institutions?

[00:12:57] Francesca Hong: Well, our inauguration was over Zoom. I was wearing a Dolly Parton T-shirt 'cause we were, um... There was social distancing, and the Republicans kept trying to bring us into session. It was absurd that we were, you know, compromising people's safety, uh, in order to prove a political point. The absurdity of working in a Republican-led, uh, legislature with a Democratic governor who's had to govern by goaltending, right?

There's a powerful, um, veto pen, uh, one of the few executive powers that the, uh, Republicans, didn't strip of our governor when they came in for a lame duck session. What was absurd was that we had Republicans who were unwilling to stand up for their communities and only stand in line with Robin Vos, the speaker.

I think I was really shocked by how much power one individual could hold in a legislature, and that much of the negotiating and this opportunity where we should be writing our values into law to help people's lives, be easier, have folks age with dignity, make sure our kids have good food and an education, and instead we're feeding into different talking points and politicizing our communities.

But I dug into what I knew, which is building relationships. It's kind of amazing how there's a lot of politicians who can't really hold a conversation with, like, just everyday folks as, like, at a bar. Demystifying government and what politics is supposed to look like, I went in realizing that treating this work as a public servant and not a politician is what's gonna help me succeed.

, and what does success look like? We actually passed a bipartisan bill, and I made sure to, um, have it be a Republican-led bill, um, where we built a broad coalition. We had people sending postcards, making calls, pressuring their elected officials, getting into the press, and we were able to, you know... And this does not happen in the legislature often.

The democratic process is, I think it's less than 10% of bills introduced by Democrats even get a public hearing. And so for us to pass a bill on race and diversity, it's Act 266, which we passed in late 2023, that would include Asian American education in K-12 public schools.

That came from building relationships outside of, the legislature with communities who don't often feel represented in, in politics. And I'm the first Asian American to serve in the legislature, so I had to make sure to use that responsibility, and privilege, uh, to encourage more people to get involved in organizing and fighting for this very important bill.

So there are absurdities that come with consolidated, and I would say artificially grown power of a gerrymandered, legislature. And the weird navigating unwritten rules of how to like kinda wheel and deal in politics, but staying focused by remaining that public servant and that I have a role to make government more accessible.

If we can't get more bills passed in this Republican gridlock, then I better be organizing outside and letting folks know what government can and should look like, that we need to be passing bills like mine for paid leave for all or healthy school meals for all, abolishing the tip minimum wage here in Wisconsin, which is still $2.33 an hour.

So I think, you know, the time in the legislature has shown that if you want to fight for people, you better be out there fighting alongside them

[00:16:52] David Sirota: That is a good segue into your current campaign. You're traveling the state. You're getting the socialist label thrown at you. Uh, you're from, Madison, which I presume around other parts of Wisconsin is at times eye-rolled as some, like, you know, socialist, weirdo, uh, haven, right? And yet you, you are like contending in, in the statewide polls. So my question from that is, when you're out there campaigning, uh, what that you are putting forward do you sense that people Democratic voters or at least primary voters, are most responding to?

[00:17:33] Francesca Hong: Fund public schools, tax the rich, and stop the AI data centers. I introduced a bill, that would put a moratorium on the construction of new hyperscale AI data centers. And this issue, I think, it's a metaphor for where we are with democracy and hypercapitalism and the growth of oligarchs and trillionaires while we are seeing, working-class folks struggle and wages stagnant while corporate profit and corruption continues to grow.

These are issues that it's not just resonating with Democrats but with Republicans and independents. These are issues that have not only bipartisan support but multi-generational support. And this is key in where we have a state that is an aging state and, , it turns out when you don't have high-quality childcare and, and great public schools and, uh, weed is still illegal, Our, our state isn't as attractive as it could be in terms of making it, in terms of being a state for working families.

And I think, uh, more people are frustrated and realizing that these things are possible, and yet we don't have them in our state. And whether it's I'm in, you know, rural, Taylor County, uh, or I'm talking to folks in Racine and Kenosha, these three issues are not only wildly popular, but they're practical, and they're starting to make sense for folks.

And I want people to know that they have a right to be angry and frustrated and that we can organize to build a movement to demand more of our politicians.

[00:19:16] David Sirota: On the data center question, I wanna drill down a little bit on this. When you are talking to voters, is it, "I don't want this loud industrial site near my-- in my community"? Is it, "I feel like more data centers means higher electricity rates"? Is it, "The data centers are powering the AI that is going to destroy our economy and take over the world and create a Terminator-like hellscape"? Is it all three? What do you think is behind the sudden and really, intense opposition to the data center build-out?

[00:19:52] Francesca Hong: It's all three and more. If you think about the time in which these are now growing across Wisconsin, it's a time where working class people are already struggling and things are so uncertain. And then you have this massive development and all of-- and like it's dominating the news about how it's going to do all these things, increase surveillance, that it's going to contaminate water, jack up energy bills, that there's noise pollution, it's taking over our farmlands, it's what's making people feel even less in control.

The risk of being even less in control of your lives than you are now because things are so hard has only escalated the urgency and I would say pushed the public opinion from, you know, well, let's regulate or make sure we're protecting our natural resources, our public health, to we straight up just don't fucking want these here ever.

[00:20:51] David Sirota: We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back

​

[00:20:54] David Sirota: Welcome back to Lever Time.

Let's continue on this, the data center question. I mean, the flip side of the data center argument is data centers bring some economic development, arguably could bring serious tax revenues, if those facilities are taxed properly, granted a big if. A lot of states give away a lot of resources to tech companies. But when you hear the tech guys, the tech triumphalists paint the best possible picture of data centers, right? Like, "Hey, they're gonna be quiet, uh, they're gonna be environmentally sound. They are going to generate tax revenue that will help the local community schools." What is your response to, to their kind of their own utopian argument?

[00:21:40] Francesca Hong: I'm not interested in governing on your promises, There is no guarantee in a time where AI is growing to control more communities as opposed to communities controlling AI. So that rosy painted picture that you may be describing, if you think you can create that, uh, I want the down payment, the money up front, and then I wanna make sure you're gonna keep paying if this doesn't happen.

And if you're unwilling to do that, that doesn't give me any confidence that this is, this is a deal we should, uh, move forward. Here in Wisconsin, we've already been Foxconnced once. We're stuck with abandoned assets, um, tens of thousands of jobs fewer than what was promised, and peoples whose lives have been upended and, you can't take that back.

So paying their full way, payments upfront, investing in renewable energy infrastructure, and making sure that they continue to pay to be here. Now, that may be a scenario that is a little bit more realistic. But when you have developers and these companies who are coming in to make financial deals, with borrowed money, keeping the state in litigation, uh, and puts us at risk, this an irresponsible use of taxpayer money, but even more so, com-I will not compromise public health.

And I think there are ways that maybe in a smaller scale where they're actually taxed and that there are, full plans in what will happen if they were potentially, um, having to shut down or leave. But, for Democrats especially, where sometimes I see more risk-averse political decisions, um, to take on these sorts of high-risk financial deals feels very irresponsible.

Um, But ultimately, Wisconsin is a local control state, and the policies that we have, uh, presented with the moratorium bill is to make sure that if a community does choose to have these in their, in their city or town, that they have the resources to protect themselves, and that we are looking at making sure that we're protecting broader, um, implications for the state.

We have data centers right now in Wisconsin that are not paying sales and use tax, and these tax exemptions tally up to $2 billion. So it's, it's making sure that, - going back to my Democratic socialist values of fairness, democracy, and human rights, let's protect public health.

Let's make sure that this is a fair process and those who want, to build these centers pay their fair share.

[00:24:14] David Sirota: Can you talk a little bit more about, how your politics have operated inside of the Wisconsin Democratic Party? You just alluded to the idea that, the Democratic, hesitancy to have a kind of straight-up fight with, uh, big, powerful corporate interests.

Uh, data centers, good example. Are there other examples that are coming up in this race? Are there other examples where you see a party that has been unnecessarily unwilling to really have the fights it needs to have?

[00:24:46] Francesca Hong: If we are to bring down healthcare costs, we have to look at healthcare prices and fighting for Medicare for All at the federal level, absolutely. But doing what we need to do with regulating large corporate hospitals, cracking down on insurance claim denials because this cold war between, you know, insurance companies and for-profit hospital conglomerates have put consumers at risk, not just in terms of not being able to afford good quality healthcare, but not getting care at all.

And I've seen the h- hospital lobby whether it's big pharma, big insurance. I think there's opportunities here at the state, to pass very practical policies when it comes to regulating, hospital, pricing and making sure that we have, uh, fair prescription drug prices, to be more explicit in that part of the solutions to lowering costs has to be to take on, some of the corporate power.

It's on everyday folks, unfortunately, to give their politicians courage sometimes. And I think Wisconsinites are telling folks, and this is based on a lot of the conversations we've had with our voters and the growing support for our campaign, that the people of Wisconsin are willing to give their politicians some courage to back 'em up in taking on these corporate fights.

[00:26:07] David Sirota: Yeah, I, I've called it the politics of villain avoidance that I think infects a lot of, uh, a lot of democratic politics. This idea that, like, we can propose solutions, we can, offer a vision for the future without naming who the obstacles are, without naming who the problem is, right? Some of these problems are really genuinely zero-sum, problems in the sense of there isn't a third way between the oligarch ripping you off and making sure you don't get ripped off, right?

It's one or the other. Either the oligarch gets to rip you off or we fix the problem and you don't get ripped off and the oligarch may not like that. There's no third way between that. And I feel like a lot of Democratic politics, certainly in the past, has tried to pretend like you don't have to actually have these fights. And then of course on the other side are the Republicans. And, and I wanna ask you about that because you're, you're in a state where the Republicans, uh, have real power in the legislature. You are proposing stuff like universal childcare, universal paid leave, Medicaid expansion, a public health insurance option, a state-run public bank. People may hear that and be like, "Hey, I want that. That sounds fantastic." But if you have a divided legislature, if you are the governor, how does that actually become reality?

[00:27:24] Francesca Hong: It's the inside-outside strategy again. Will always be a community organizer and a service industry worker. I'm not saying you can talk your way out of every single conversation to build into your negotiation to pass universal policies, but I am saying that, I think our campaign is making the more, uh, accurate calculation of where voters are at.

And, you know, we have to be able to leverage the, the public pressure and the public outcry over the fact that these very, like, essential basic things are becoming more and more unaffordable and unattainable. Free childcare, public grocery stores. I mean, thank you, Fox News, for putting up, like, my policy agenda, uh, coming after it, but then it just made folks realize that it's even more reasonable and practical to have these things.

I think that negotiating from a place of strength is imperative, that you have to show folks that these are things that your government can and should do. Um, but let's make this possible together. Let's put pressure on your politicians, and make these things happen. I think it's popular for folks, and you've seen a good response, I would say even Governor Walz has done this in Minnesota, where your willingness to burn the c-political capital that you build in order to get shit done.

That's how that legislature operated with a very slim majority in Minnesota. I want us to do that here in Wisconsin, and I'm willing to work with anyone, who wants to get things done for working-class people. And I think not having Robin Vos in the legislature, an opportunity to build more working relationships with Republicans, but also making sure that their constituencies and their communities are well-informed.

Even if their Republican representatives don't want to inform them about what is going on, we will make sure they know what is possible

[00:29:16] David Sirota: So what is your view on why the Republicans have had a decent amount of power in Wisconsin? I mean, Wisconsin's been a swing state for a long time, but I've often wondered why Republicans have managed to gain such a foothold there. You running for governor now, what is your answer to that? Like, how, how do you explain why Republicans have been able to really, really make gains in Wisconsin?

[00:29:43] Francesca Hong: So for the last 16 years, the gerrymandered legislative maps have made it so that Republicans have grown artificial power in the legislature and put a stronghold by, making government more dysfunctional and making people more resentful of Madison and government and looking towards more privatization, whether it be with the school voucher program that has been expanded while simultaneously Republicans have been defunding public schools.

Um, whether it's local governments that have not gotten their fair share of revenue, so you're seeing stagnant distribution of revenue back to counties and towns for them to pay for essential services like fire, EMS, and roads, sewer, and instead they're dealing with rising costs and having to make budget cuts because the legislature is choosing to hoard that money and then giving out in tax cuts for the wealthiest.

But before the last 16 years of the gerrymandered legislature, we saw massive devastation to communities, with the loss of middle manufacturing jobs. So whether that was in the GM plants in Southeast, uh, Wisconsin, the paper mills in Central Wisconsin, I remind folks that during World War II, uh, and then in the Green New Deal, we had, you know, free childcare, and even during COVID, we had healthy school meals for all.

Government is very capable of actually funding the things that we need. It's a matter of the political will and also what is the political climate in which people are willing to be politically courageous to do the right things. But I think that growth of Republican support came from, not acting swiftly to replace so many of these good, uh, manufacturing jobs with either, like, expanding, government, uh, jobs in the state, in our agencies, to investing in small businesses again.

I think that, uh, during that time, you know, Dems lost an opportunity to really fight to be the people who are gonna fight for working-class folks, when privatization and corporate profits and corporate greed devastated communities. And we're risking that again right now by not taking drastic, big, bold, visionary actions.

And, you know, this goes back to data centers, this growth of AI. I don't know if we're ready for the massive job loss that's about to come for entry-level jobs, for a lot of white-collar jobs. And, if we do not seize this opportunity to be the party for working-class folks, for workers, for families first, I worry that we're gonna be heading into decades and more of Republican stronghold because they will pretend to care, and we have to act and make sure that they know government can care.

[00:32:31] David Sirota: I mean, you're, you're speaking my language now about, about trade policy, outsourcing, offshoring, et cetera, et cetera, Democrats being seen as the party that was aligned with the political forces that did that and running that back again with data centers, big tech, people who are my age remember what happened to blue-collar workers during NAFTA, saw it, and a lot of people, uh, in the information sector convinced themselves that they were immune from that, that they, they had college education.

You know, it's sad that this is happening to blue-collar workers, but really, uh, for th- for that sort of information class, who really cares? It can't happen to me. And we didn't, by the way, build the social safety net infrastructure, to de-risk that kind of displacement, in the future. And now we are here in that future where the data center revolution, the AI revolution threatens to do to information sector workers, white-collar workers, if you will, what white-collar workers themselves saw happen to blue-collar workers.

And guess what? A lot of information sector, educated workers are freaking out 'cause they know what happened to blue-collar workers. So I think that is what is fueling a-an understandable panic, and I think the kinds of proposals that you're putting forward are, are, are... And this is not a criticism of you, but, like, they're belated.

Like, we should already have an expanded Medicaid safety net. We should already have an expanded, set of ways to de-risk displacement, and we don't have that. And if we don't get it soon, you're right, like the convergence of AI job displacement and no social safety net, that is a recipe for a true, dystopia.

Do you think, those convergences are what is making the kind of politics that you are preaching more palatable, more possible in a place like Wisconsin?

[00:34:22] Francesca Hong: Yes. When there is political uncertainty that's coming with deep economic uncertainty and fear, coupled with the fact that here in Wisconsin, like it is very intentional to defund public education and early childhood education to K-12, to our tech colleges and our public universities. And that coupled with what is likely coming with this massive AI job loss and having very little cause of action for workers to hold companies accountable, the most responsible response is to simultaneously build these social safety nets while invested heavily in public sector jobs and upskilling and education.

We are a bellwether state, they say as goes Wisconsin, as goes the country, and we see our rural, urban, suburban communities start to see less resentment in one another and realize instead of having been like fighting for resources in like whose towns or whose schools are being funded, it is the state where you can go to have the things that you need while we are rebuilding.

Um, you cannot do that rebuilding without investing in making sure everyone has what they need first. And that's why it's it's stopping the data centers while investing in public education and early childhood development and making sure that local governments have the resources they need to help folks navigate what is an impending, very tumultuous economic times.

Couple that with the Trump regime that is hell-bent on making it even more volatile because it turns out, you know, fascism isn't good for the economy, If we wanna protect ourselves from a Trump regime, and I know right now for a lot of Democrats, fighting Trump is another popular talking point.

Well, that fight goes nowhere unless you're protecting people and making sure that their lives are not upended every day, and that means making sure folks have access to good food, housing, healthcare, and education, and that their neighborhoods and communities have what they need to keep each other safe.

[00:36:30] David Sirota: We're gonna take one more quick break, but before we continue, I just wanna remind you about The Lever's weekly newsletter, Midterm Madness. Every week, our newsroom brings you the elections worth watching, the money trails worth following, the numbers that cut through the spin, and the campaign moments that reveal more than the official talking points ever will.

You can check out Midterm Madness at levernews.com/midtermmadness. We'll be right back.

Welcome back to Lever Time. I, I wanna talk about the politics of your race, some of the prognostication about what is gonna happen in the, in the primary. For those who don't pay that much attention, to Wisconsin, I think people do know that Wisconsin is one of the ultimate swing states. You mentioned Donald Trump, so I wanna start there when we talk about the politics of Wisconsin. I asked you that question about Republicans in the state, but I think it's also relevant to ponder why was Donald Trump able to win Wisconsin twice? I just-- It kinda boggles the mind and I, I, I just wanna ask you, who's been traveling around the state talking to tons of people, how was he able to win the state not once, but twice?

[00:37:39] Francesca Hong: I think Donald Trump was able to win the state twice, but Bernie Sanders also won the state. And I wanna bring that in because in traveling and talking to communities, especially in more rural areas, so much of it has to do with

Like what is your economic situation? And the resentment that grows from seeing in places like Milwaukee and Madison, who happen to have more Black and brown folks, and seeing these communities grow and rural, smaller communities, continue to, grow older, but not have new families coming in, seeing economic disinvestment.

Couple that with the Republican-led, legislature, artificial power, divesting in public services, local government. I Think ultimately it's people who don't feel like their politicians are in touch with what it's like, or they don't see themselves in it, and wanting, change because there's just such a, you know, distrust or people not wanting to have anything to do with politics.

and then just in 2024 specifically, I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that We didn't do a good enough job in expanding the electorate of more working class blue collar voters. And I think Democrats have an elitism problem, and I think our message It's not just the message, it's the messengers.

We didn't present the vision where everyone saw themselves in it, and we lost on some of the culture wars But Bernie spoke so clearly to economic issues, and he won 71 out of 72 counties in 2016

[00:39:24] David Sirota: Yeah. I mean, we could run back the counterfactuals on if Bernie Sanders was the nominee, would he have actually won the state, uh, uh, a state that Hillary Clinton, famously or infamously, notoriously did not even go to, uh, which is kind of still mind-blowing and hard to imagine. The Trump phenomenon, Trump winning a state that is the ultimate swing state, I think has created a perception and a fear, among the Democratic political class

that this is a state in order to win a gubernatorial race for the party, for, for Democrats to win the gubernatorial race. There is this age-old theory that in light of how much of a swing state a place like Wisconsin is, that Democrats have to run a so-called moderate, have to nominate a so-called moderate, a so-called, like a generic Democrat, which you very much are not, in order to have a chance to win, the governor's race. We've seen that thrown at you. I'm sure you've heard that a lot among the political chattering class. you running a populist, campaign, uh, what's your response to that idea that like, "Hey, the safest thing we should do is not nominate you," but the, the safest thing the Democrats can do is nominate a generic Democrat who's offering sort of more of the same, that the Democratic Party has been offering.

And in fairness, no disrespect to the current governor, but like the, the current governor is, is, has some different politics than you, who is a Democrat. What's your response to that?

[00:40:49] Francesca Hong: These are dangerous times. We have fascism growing and economic uncertainty coupled with the growth of AI. We have trillionaires now. The most dangerous thing we could do is do more of the same. We have people right now who are rightfully angry and frustrated in feeling that, and recognizing that a system is very rigged against them, and we would be grossly out of touch and irresponsible to not grow a coalition of voters, of supporters who are going to continue to vote for Democrats because we've done the bold and courageous thing of actually standing up for working class people.

I think that we are showing through our campaign that is multi-generational, that has broad support from Gen Z and younger voters who are tired, not just of the status quo, but of a two-party system altogether, yet we are bringing them in. And I'm running, yes, as a Democratic socialist on the Democratic ticket as a Democrat, that we're building the big coalition and the big tent party that we say we are.

[00:41:59] David Sirota: But, but just to challenge you a little bit,

the, the, the fascism question, like, I, I always hear that whipped around

as like, okay, yes, you're right. Like, the stakes are so big now. The Republicans are authoritarians. They're so dangerous. We're moving into such dangerous times that the only thing we should be thinking about is this notion of electability. In this theory, past electability is prelude. Like, we know how we ran in the past. We've run these kinds of campaigns in the past that are very different from your campaign, and what's dangerous is to run a very different campaign, and we should run the same campaigns that we've run in the past that have, at times, eked out victories.

By the way, this is the same argument that's happening, nearby in Michigan, right? Against Abdul El-Sayed, right? A Democratic senator in Michigan in the last election ran as a very corporate-friendly, a quote-unquote, "moderate Democrat," and eked out a win. And I asked Abdul El-Sayed, "Hey, listen, what about the argument he's just, you know, instead of, that Mi-Michigan is most easily won in that Senate race by just running that back. And so what about the idea that, your kind of politics are a threat to the kind of electability that's necessary to win the general election?

[00:43:14] Francesca Hong: The most electable person is the person who wins the most votes, and we have been winning since we started this campaign in the polls, in growing numbers of supporters. Um, I think that what is dangerous is to miscalcalculate where voters are at right now.

Who is in touch with the voters and what are they saying? And who is vocal about it? Who is willing to fight to elect their candidate? And our fighters, our supporters are people who haven't engaged in politics before. We fought the disillusionment and apathy that the Dems keep losing to in not being able to grow a broader coalition.

there hasn't been a campaign like ours or a candidate like me before, but the voters that are supporting us are the voters that haven't voted for Democrats before. These are voters who have voted for Trump in the past, in a time where no other Democrat, I think, has, last I checked, been able to raise the money that Tiffany did or gotten the seven-figure checks from three different billionaires who are backing his campaign.

we're the campaign who is bringing the reinforcements and the organizing infrastructure to actually organize to win, and not just win in August and November, but to keep netting win for Democrats to move an agenda that will deliver for working class people, change the material conditions of their lives.

And when folks see that when Dems are in power and things are getting a little bit better, they're likely gonna keep voting for us. And the folks who are learning from our Dem volunteers who have been with the county parties for years and years, knocking doors and building relationships, we're bringing the next generation of voters and volunteers and organizers who are gonna keep building onto that power.

We're the campaign who's talking about not just winning, but building power to make sure that working class people have not only what they need, but Wisconsin can be a place that's actually affordable for everyone. This is the year of the many and not just the money, and we're bringing the money and the many now.

It's what got us here

[00:45:26] David Sirota: and, and on that question of money, you've refused corporate PAC money, you've built a strong grassroots, campaign.

[00:45:32] Francesca Hong: Yeah

[00:45:33] David Sirota: Do you believe that the current way that you are raising money and the current way that many populist candidates are raising money, rejecting corporate PAC money, speaking out against super PACs and the like, can you raise enough resources in an election where tens of millions of dollars, will be spent? And I, I would add to that question, ultimately, does the entire campaign finance system have to change to make the kind of politics you're practicing more possible?

[00:46:04] Francesca Hong: We have to end Citizens United. We have to look at what's happening with Hawaii and Montana and the different state regulations we can put in bringing more transparency into, corporate PAC money, that are used in statewide elections and local elections. Ours is the fundraising, the grassroots small dollar donations that will hold us accountable to the people.

But it's how you use your funds, how, where you invest first. I think folks are gonna look at our strategy in making sure that we had a strong digital presence as well as the staff needed to build organizing infrastructure as opposed to investing in that later on. And I'm not a generic Democratic candidate, so a generic campaign ad is not going to work.

But we have found ways to make our small, our dollars go a whole lot further. And, you know, the last I checked, I think there were some, uh, candidates who are spending more on consultants. We are making sure that there's homegrown investment in local campaign staff.

And our team is not just of folks who have established, institutional campaign knowledge or have worked for the party, and we love those folks on our team who are with us too, but also people who have never worked on campaign before, where we're connecting innovation and, and efficiency into campaigning and making our dollars go further and using it creatively and having some fun in the process because we get to have fun and joy in politics again.

It is a form of resistance, and the same plays and the same players have been... They got us here, so building a new playbook makes sense. It's, it's the sensible thing to do. And I do think that fundraising is going more towards small dollar grassroots fundraising and those individual big dollar donations.

Especially in a time where folks are struggling economically and you got gas prices where they are, it's gonna be reaching more people for more dollars as opposed to catering to a couple, uh, more special donors who are giving you those especially large amounts.

[00:48:22] David Sirota: One last question before we go, I think I read that you have a Milwaukee Bucks tattoo. I just wanna check, are you okay that Giannis is gone? How are you holding up with that? Do you have a message for Giannis that you'd like to send here to him?

[00:48:35] Francesca Hong: Giannis, you have captured the hearts of the people of Milwaukee and the folks of Wisconsin, and I just wanna say thank you. And I do have a Bucks in six tattoo. It's a little over six and a half inches long on my calf, and it's there as a reminder that our small market teams are mighty, and Giannis definitely had a mighty impact on Wisconsin, and I'm grateful for the time he spent here.

[00:49:08] David Sirota: Yes, I feel the same way about Nikola Jokic here in Denver. So small market teams, yes. Like, there are big stars, yes. And I, I dread the day, God willing it never comes, that Jokic leaves Denver. We'll try to make sure that, that your message gets to, gets directly to Giannis.

Uh, Francesca Hong is running for governor of Wisconsin. She's a Democrat. The election is coming up. Fran Hong, thank you so much for taking time with us.

[00:49:33] Francesca Hong: David, thanks so much for having me. This was great.

[00:49:36] David Sirota: Thanks for listening to another episode of Lever Time. Lever Time is a production of The Lever. This episode was produced by Natalie Bettendorf. Our theme music is by Nick Byron Campbell. Marketing support from the Podglomerate. Our director of podcast production is Ron Doyle. You can subscribe to Lever Time on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're at it, leave us a comment or a review.

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I'm David Sirota. We'll be back next week with another episode of Lever Time.